Seniz

“Everyone’s gonna come out of this weird.”

What does playwork have to offer during the time of quarantine and COVID-19? Erin & Morgan talk with Seniz Yargici Lennes, founder of OYNA (formerly Twin Cities Adventure Play) about playwork during ongoing stay-at-home orders: how it can help keep us stay playful and inform our parenting.

Learn more about OYNA at OYNAToday.com.
See photos of OYNA’s awesome backyard camps on instagram @oyna_tcadventureplay. For info and to schedule a one-on-one session with Seniz, check out this page on the OYNA website. 

Playwork is the podcast for people who love play. Erin, Morgan and Maayan are play advocates, collaborators and friends. Each episode of Playwork features their candid interviews with playworkers, teachers, play theorists, parents, and more doing the (literally) dirty work of creating spaces for play. More at PlayworkPodcast.com

Our theme song is Happiness Is by Podington Bear. 

Transcript

spk_0:   0:03
This is the play work podcast. I'm Erin. I'm Morgan, and it is April 2020. And for many of us, depending on where you are in the country or in the world, were at least four weeks into some version of self isolation or observing a stay at home order and otherwise living through and witnessing the Corona virus pandemic. Morgan, how are you doing? How is this affecting you? Well, so I'm in the I was already working from home mostly and

spk_1:   0:32
in the final year of my PhD, so I was already on the computer and anxious all the time. Anyway, I can see how that would carry over. Yeah, no, it transferrable skills. Seamless, to say the least because, like, I already live in like, a cabin in the woods and, like, mostly hung out with my cats have been preparing for this for years. I was ready. But the thing was, was what I've been realizing, especially lately, is that yes, like, that's how I was already living, but that I had all of these systems in place to not go crazy from that and that those systems have now gone. You know, I don't get to, like, see friends at a coffee shop. I don't get Teoh like, see my therapist in person and like when I do check in with other people, they're also at home on their computers, worrying all

spk_0:   1:15
the time like the release valve is kind of missing. Yeah, exactly. But

spk_1:   1:23
I I also like, feel very aware that, like, I don't see any kids, I don't have kids at home. I don't share responsibility for looking after kids. I don't see other people's Children in, like the informal potluck BBQ ways that I used to. Even I have been noticing, like more and more of them out and about, like on their bikes and doing stuff which is cool now that the weather's nice. So that's been interesting to know my Children in public space. But when it comes to like play and play in a pandemic, I feel very

spk_0:   1:56
out of the loop. We just partly why I'm so excited for this conversation

spk_1:   2:01
and you we're basically fine and that, um, I'm an instructor out of college, some working from home, finishing the semester, and I have a four year old son who is also home with us and I should say that, Morgan, you and I both are both in Vermont And while there is Krone virus here, and it is, of course serious. This is not a very densely populated state, and you and I in particular both in rural areas of the state. So the most important thing we can do right now is stay home and just lay low. And as time goes on and on, it gets harder and harder to do that. Well, like when it comes to work stuff. I feel like I'm earning my keep, but I'm definitely

spk_0:   2:47
upon reflection feel like I've better parent than an employee, you know, relatively speaking, I'm certainly not like a some kind anyway. You know, all parenting feels aside in general, like I've been trying harder with my kids and I have been with my job confession, I guess.

spk_1:   3:07
And, you know, in the beginning, you know, I put a lot of energy into, like,

spk_0:   3:11
Let's make play doh today. Let's bake cupcakes today. Let's go out to the waterfall today

spk_1:   3:18
and I just feel like I'm running out of steam. We've done everything twice. We've done everything five times, and as time goes on. Yeah, my bag of

spk_0:   3:27
tricks is just running out and my strategies are wearing thin and so is my own personal discipline. It's just all getting kind of dull. And so that's why I wanted to kick this podcast backup. And

spk_1:   3:42
what I wanted to caution is Say something. Yeah. Hi. Yeah, I think you You, um let me give you a little introduction here. She says you're Gadgil. Ennis is the founder of Doina Doina is Turkish for play. You may know in a by its former name Twin Cities adventure play And China is a hub for play offering day camps, workshops, pop ups and in person play opportunities for people at all stages of life. Chavez is an improv performer, a preschool teacher, and in addition to running Doina, she's also a mom home over quarantine with two daughters. Thank you for being here. We're

spk_2:   4:25
having me. I'm so excited. I have to tell you. Just find my business is

spk_1:   4:30
like Oh, I have That was great. That was perfect. Summary of what? Ideo. It's always easier for someone else That's really nice in here.

spk_2:   4:40
A Z how it's perceived, right? I'm glad that you're perceiving it as what it is.

spk_1:   4:46
Play woman. How far into this are you? Where you at? What's your sort of status

spk_2:   4:51
on Day 30 three? I think, um, we started a quarantining march, whatever that weekend was. March 14 camp. And I'm okay. I actually feel good. And it's such a weird feeling to say

spk_1:   5:09
I feel

spk_2:   5:10
good. In fact, I feel great. There's so much happening outside of my space that I'm very aware of. I'm not affected by a lot of it personally, So I'm thankful for that. Um, and there's always kind of that feeling of like, I have to enjoy this feeling right now. You know, like open myself to joy because things may get really hard. Things may get really personal. Um, so I'm kind of aware of that kind of every moment. It might get really,

spk_1:   5:41
really bad writes a year. And just till I kind of take a whale, the nuance and artistry you just put to that. But like you're saying, you know, like, yes, this is it is what it is. But like if if I were sick, if someone I loved were sick, that would that's really scary and So you're sort of like saving some emotional space for that, possibly.

spk_2:   6:03
And I'm just appreciating what I do have. And it's kind of that practice that, you know, I'm always practicing that gratitude. Right. So I feel good. I'm so thankful that I'm here with my kids. There are eight and 10 years old.

spk_1:   6:18
Yeah. I want to ask you first. If you could just describe your space, Where are you isolating? Tell us about your space where you're doing all of this right now.

spk_2:   6:30
So we live in Minneapolis, Minnesota. I live in a duplex. Um, in the bottom level of a duplex, we have old friends that live upstairs. We have a gorgeous backyard.

spk_1:   6:42
Are you looking at it out that window

spk_2:   6:44
and looking at it up with

spk_1:   6:46
That's actually my next question. So I want to hear the state of your house and then also look out your window. What does your past chart looks like? That's what way we could do

spk_2:   6:55
that now. So right now in my office, I mean, my house is a mess. The kids were here all the time. So mostly it's like

spk_1:   7:01
dishes. The amount of dishes you guys

spk_2:   7:04
so You know, the house is a mess, and outside is always a mess. You both know this. I run camps out of my backyard in the summer time, so we just kind of keep an adventure playground in our backyard.

spk_1:   7:15
Tell me it. Just tell me. Name a few more. The loose parts.

spk_2:   7:18
Just name some loose parts. So we can't. We have a lot of plastic chairs out there right now. Tires? Of course. Um, well, we have tarps and fabric out there right now. Lots of loose boards, tense hammocks. Um, balls. Of course we have. Ah. Um uh, What's it called? Uh, slack line that the kids put in last summer. And then that slack line tied to it is actually a bucket swing and old bucket swings. You've

spk_0:   7:49
got a

spk_1:   7:50
tree house out there, don't you?

spk_2:   7:51
We've got a tree house out there. So if I'm looking at right now, it's just the giant maple tree in the middle of the yard. Or maybe not quite in the middle. It's pushed back a little bit toward the fence. Um, we have water cisterns, thes gigantic water systems that someone donated. So they're back there. I built a fire pit, but that was really fun. I used, um we just went on a scavenger hunt in the backyard. A phone like buried bricks and big stones. And I I did some masonry. No place. I'm

spk_1:   8:23
gonna send people to the instagram of your backyard camps, but like it is epic, you have a an exit inspiring backyard.

spk_2:   8:34
And this is not my house I'm renting from this house. So my friends that live upstairs and his sister owns the house and they've been so amazing to allow this growth in this space and, you know, every year ask them because every year we grow and you know, the first it was like

spk_1:   8:50
two weeks of half

spk_2:   8:51
day. Only people I know then that second year was like four weeks of have to him in the third year was last year. We did eight weeks of full day camps, and every time I brought proposed this to them, you know, they were just like we're just so glad that the yard could be used in this way. We love to share space, and they've just been so amazing.

spk_1:   9:09
Are they? Do they see it like, have they seen

spk_2:   9:11
what it looks like that they come by. Just so you know, we're

spk_1:   9:14
destroying. It is completely and you know, every year

spk_2:   9:19
I offer to bring in a crew or bring in my own crew and redo the guard and like re Grasset like receded and whatever. But then it's just destroyed again.

spk_1:   9:30
That's awesome. Eso I thought of you when I was sort of feet starting to feel like depleted, and I thought of you. So in so many ways, you were like you were like the perfect position for their circumstances. You have, ah, playful spirit. You have this, like, built up inherent trust and Children that you've like nurtured from years of play working. You have a permissive space. You have 40 billion loose parts already. How is play work informing you on a daily basis?

spk_2:   10:01
I love this question because play work to me is is so many things other than creating and maintaining a space for child driven play, right? It's a practice in first of all presence, openness, self awareness, observation, assessing situations truly like truly seeing what's actually happening here, Um, practicing how we respond instead of reacting. So all of these things that play working holds are things that I try to practice every day. And also I knew that we're in this for a long time. I knew that right away, so I knew that they were gonna be ups and downs. Naturally, to me, it just seems pointless to fight low feelings, right? Just like when we're, you know, on a playground watching kids play, we allow them to feel those hard feelings on. So a practice of accepting and leaning into those hard feelings and saying, Okay, I feel good right now. I'm not gonna feel good every day. That's just how

spk_1:   11:01
it is. Oh, let's linger on that for a minute. I mean, I think that's really important. And it's something. Um, I forgot, I guess. Like that in play work, I remember Claire talking about this and Morgan. Maybe you could speak to it, too. That, like this, that play a playful place is not a place where a child or anyone is happy all of the time necessarily. But it's a space where, like all kinds of emotions are supported and you're you can feel them fully, and so that can be joy and silliness and creativity. And maybe it's like sorrow and boredom and loneliness. Um, I don't know. Morgan. Does this trigger anything for you that you want to add? Yeah. I mean, I think that's I think that's really powerful to acknowledge and like to be really clear that in a place based, we value like all of the child's emotions and to make space for us toe be really clear about what we're going through. I think there's a constant balance in in, like, professional play work, but which I'm just saying to me like Not your own kids But like, there's attention in that between, like, authenticity and professionalism sometimes, right? Like, how much of myself do I bring to this? And I definitely see that manifest when folks are going through hard stuff in their own life, right? Like and you? Sometimes you can do all the work that you can, and you still show up to work like grumpy and sad, and that it's worth obviously like whenever you can. It worked like show up as as well as you can as wholeheartedly as you can for Children's play. But when you can't to just be straight about it, is really helpful. And I've had I've had really lovely interactions with kids just a couple of times. Um, when I haven't been able toe be that chirpy self, right? And just to be able t o say that, actually, this is like something's going on. And I'm really sad today. Uh huh, Yeah. I'm also thinking about it in terms off like, um, as a parent who is trying to draw from play work and getting through this like, um ah, like remembering. You know, I feel like I put a lot of energy into making sure he doesn't feel the loneliness or doesn't feel bored. But I think that and I don't know, I don't know exactly. Again, I feel like it's impossible identify what's going on in the moment for me personally, but like when he does just act out or if he is upset and it's hard to kind of get a handle on it that that that, like my role, um, if I'm being his parent and drawing from play work is to just be let just to make. Allowing to cry, you know, would allow him to be mad and do that sort of like Magda Gerber like affirmation like, You seem really upset right now. I can tell you're really mad. Um, I'm just kind of and and and instead of sort of like, let's go build a train or let's just get outside. Just put your shoes on. Let's go outside. I'm going outside without you You know, like I don't need to solve the problem like it's sometimes it's not about solving the problem, but just sort of like giving, providing space for that full emotion to be expressed. Another. Another thing in

spk_2:   14:22
play work that you guys have both done a lot of in your professional work. Is that sort of like observing the child's behavior and using that as information to provide them with materials or some kind of play opportunity? Right. So, like, for example, you know what's what. What's like a classic example, like if the kids are climbing something unstable, you give them something stable to climb. Or if they're whatever like breaking stuff. It's like you can't break the picnic table, but you can break this other saying that's breakable. Another throwing darts at each other and just covertly build like a bull's eye and hang it

spk_1:   15:03
up and ghost away. Yeah, don't Bullseye becomes the thing. Oh, that's cool of I love talking with play workers, just like this story casually begins. Like when the kids were throwing darts at each other like That's great. But in terms of, like observing and responding to what I see in Children's play, I typically start by looking for where they're getting frustrated or in trouble and then trying to feed that if they're finding with one another and it keeps going wrong, all, like, bring out a mattress or like somewhere safe for them to, like, throw each other down something that it's okay for them to throw at one another. Um, and then, like once that's done, then I start trying to notice, like where some of the kids were really absorbed and how it might be possible to extend that, either with more of the material or a good match for that first material. So, like more fabric, more close spades to go with the fabric or whatever it might be or like taking some of that material and putting it in different locations. Yeah, so that, like it's more of what they want but there's just like a corner of it poking out behind someplace that maybe seems like it's been under used for a while. That's a great idea. I thought about rearranging the furniture actually like. So he comes downstairs and the couch is some other way. That's give me an hour. I was just gonna things

spk_2:   16:30
that I do. Once in a while, I rearranged the furniture. I you know, I changed the location of materials. Another thing. Music just like different kinds of music. Different moods of music is a major thing that I introduced now, like during this time. And I find that when we're whenever it was just kind of like snippy. I say music and everyone's like

spk_0:   16:53
Yes, you know. So

spk_2:   16:56
that's been really hopeful in this time.

spk_0:   16:59
This this is

spk_1:   16:59
something I'd love to get your s take on, and occasionally I just think to myself, you know, like adults. You know, I'm home with an only child who's four, and I'm thinking about the only Children out there, and he's fine. Everyone's fine. But the capacity for an adult to be a playmate for a child is just limited right? And I think about the the thing I know I cannot provide that he is missing. You know, Aiken do, ah, 1,000,000,000 activity, blah, blah, blah, blah. But I'm not a child. And so I mean, maybe this is just something I have to like Grieve that he's not having that sort of that kind of connection. You know, it just feels like such a sad gap in his social world. Feels like such a sad gap in his world. Right now, it is a

spk_2:   17:47
sad gap, and also you're not the only one. There are a lot of people going through that really similar. I mean, a lot of parents that I've talked to in the last, you know, month have exactly felt the same way. And there is, You know, there is a lot of pressure to feel like I have to be a playmate for my kid. But that still is not fulfilling the need, right? Like the need is social interaction, they have enough interaction with you, and it's hanging in the exploration with you. Yes is valuable, but it's not fulfilling that need that your you know, morn morning, right? So it is. It's just, you know, you can mourn that everyone's gonna come out of this weird. Yeah, you know, I mean, and that's okay.

spk_1:   18:31
I mean, I think that's really I think that's really powerful people. Everyone's gonna come out of this, like, hungry and weird, just like socially clumsy. And that and I think you're right. Like that's That's just true. Um, and it is. It is hard on kids right now that don't have access to other kids. Like that's just gonna be hard. But at the same time, I think that there is a lot of value in learning at that age at any age that, like, there's some things that it's really fun to do with another person who also loves those things. And there's some things that, like, you don't have any people like that right now. And you have to have fun with it alone, Like that's That's fine.

spk_2:   19:12
I feel like this is gonna be the birth of a lot of imaginary friend. Yeah, Okay. A lot of making me friends. Stuffed animals.

spk_1:   19:21
Oh, yeah, it can. It can turn out.

spk_2:   19:23
Okay. Yeah, I think it'll turn out okay.

spk_1:   19:26
Yeah. Let's talk about that. Actually wanted to kind of get to that about getting out of it. Um, I was

spk_0:   19:34
sort of

spk_1:   19:34
thinking about it in terms of like the first states of camp. Or like when an adventure playground opens for the first time, I wonder if there are lessons there on, like, the sort of clumsiness like before. Like we're all sort of like in our little own isolated individual play culture bubbles right now and when we sort of try and merge the bubbles, it's not like we have this fantasy. I'm holding this fantasy that my kids are just gonna, like, be so happy that all the kids are going so happy to see each other, and they're gonna go back to playing the games that they were playing before. But like their, their culture has been disrupted and all morphed in different directions, if that makes sense. So, Morgan, what are your thoughts? Something going back If we do allow ourselves to think ahead a little bit in terms of what you observe in the early days of an adventure playground, when everyone's adapting to this like wild new environment, if there are lessons there, Yeah, I mean, similarly, I think that, um, sort of the long term future that I imagine, involves a lot of like coming back and going away and like a lot of like in and out um River, probably for a while and based on what I've seen, another in other settings or another weird circumstances, Um, it'll it'll be pretty awkward to start with, like for most folks. Maybe because the kids who were coming to a reopening program haven't had the kind of like home play circumstances. But like all of your kids have, partly just because they'll be so like excited for other people that it'll get weird. Um, I mean, like, that's also human, right? When like you want it to bad thirsty? Yeah, exactly. Everyone's a little desperate when we all come back. Oh my God. But oh, no, no, Just that the one pattern that I've often seen is to begin with. They'll often start with this like, hoarding mentality, like they'll often let gather all the stuff and make a big pile. And it's very like hunger games. And and that and that happened sometimes for like, feel it quite

spk_0:   21:38
a

spk_1:   21:38
while, depending on the length of the program and then what often comes next will be a period of trading. So you have, like, trading posts that get set up for shops or a currency or something like that, Um and then often like the larger collaborative cultural stuff but like group formation, social hierarchy, navigation crazes that like sweep everybody at once. So thinking about being you know, the thing is like I'm imagining that you know, the first West, as we start hanging out with folks like the parents will be kind of like hanging out six feet apart. And the kids are going to start doing their thing and someone will start hoarding may be right. And so you know that it's like prime moment for a parent to run. Aren't you glad to be playing again? Make sure your friend has a turn with. So I just wonder, like Please save us well meaning parents from ourselves who are like trying to perform parenting in front of other parents again and health of that. And I wonder, What does it play worker say when the kids are hoarding to the kids for just yeah, as one firm example. I think you're totally right that that that that is very likely Ondas. Soon as you said that I was like, OK, eso what I would dio ahead of time is set up like quiet spaces for the kids who might really want social contact and be more quickly exhausted by that. So, like quiet places within the play area for them, which can also be a nice like cover for their hoarding habits. It was like If they're going to be doing this, they might get in trouble for it. Unlike, let's just give them storage of and for the parents to. I think that I think that a really explicit playoff for for them, even if that's just like beer. No, A handle of Dunkin Donuts, coffee and some bagels by a bench will make all the difference to help them, like relax. Yeah, well, I feel like this is

spk_0:   23:41
that, you know, this is the question. Before we were in lock down. You know, it's like parents at a playground. How do we That's a thing, right? How do we help parents at a playground feel like they don't have Yeah, certain? Wait for other parents. I know. I guess I just think it's gonna be where Everyone's gonna be so delicate in that moment, and there are certain things that we can anticipate. I'm always a huge advocate for just turning to the parent next,

spk_2:   24:10
um, being like,

spk_0:   24:12
I don't know how to handle this because you're here. So let's talk about it. I think this, you know, No, that's a great That's a great advice because it is so specific to the context. It's just great toe like check in with other people who are kind of swimming in this. And it kind of like Rian ignites the flame and me a little bit, you know, cause I was just really getting very dim. And it's just a good reminder of all the tools that play work offers. So thank you for talking with us about all the things that you guys are both going through. As it relates to this China's Your Gajurel, Ennis's a play advocate apparent and the founder of Doina in Minneapolis. That's a Y en a Her backyard camps are awesome and you confined photos on Instagram will link to that and everything at our website play work podcast dot com Also in the show notes. Because of social distancing restrictions. Camps are limited this summer and, she says, is offering parents support directly. You can schedule a one on one conversation with Shandez beer, her website to process how things were going with your household, your family play culture and much more. You can learn about that and all of the work she does at Doina at doina today dot com o y en a today dot com email us your questions and comments at Hello at play where. Podcast dot com Don't forget to rate and review the show. Share it with your play minded friends and colleagues and thank you

spk_1:   25:56
for listening. I'm gonna take you out

spk_0:   25:58
with some audio that I recorded earlier today. WAAS. Playing with my son The play frame, if you can't tell from listening, is that there's a fire at the hockey rink and it has to be put out. Um, but the superhero that's there to put it out has jet blasters which allow him to fly. And that only spreads more fire. So yeah. Ah, the struggle Israel folks hang in there. We'll all be together soon. Bye. Get right. Way, Way. He's got to stand here. No way! Oh, he lost his helmet. Oh, what? In a way, how come I don't get to pick its My guys wearing a helmet? Yes, but can I What? You actually can find it lost in the crater space. All right, well, while it's getting lost, I'm gonna kick the puck around. You can be. You'll be scared again. I'm scared, e you know that the back goal was actually going for him. Oh, smashed him right? Right in the head. Right in the kisser. E I find your helmet. Where is he going? On what?